Turning up the heat on heat stress: The Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s (OSHA) National Emphasis Program on Heat Stress will likely feature prominently as the summer months progress. Given that this could result in more inspections and more citations regarding heat, employers should take the time to assess and address the potential for heat-related illness and injury in their indoor and outdoor workplaces. OSHA is also working on a heat stress standard. 

Join us to understand the following and more:

• What is OSHA’s emphasis on heat?
• Which industries are impacted?
• What should employers do to protect workers from heat-related injury and illness?
• What should employers do to prepare for OSHA’s program?

Presented by Larry Stine & Sheri Oluyemi.

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Webinar Transcription

Larry Stine (00:03):
We attorneys at Lawson, we specialize in occupational safety and health administration. Been doing it a little while since less we're gonna have this as a conversation between the two of us, however, we'd be glad to take any questions that you have. Cause the way this is set up, you'll need to hit your hit the questions and answers. We'll see them come up and we'll answer them. And if you want to do while we're going, pop 'em up and we'll look up. And if not, for the most part, we're gonna hold to the end of the day.

Sheri Oluyemi (00:50):
Excellent. Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us. As Larry said, we will answer questions towards the end. So just see started. I'll start with a few questions of my own that I believe people want to know about. Starting at the very, very top. Tell us about occupational heat stress.

Larry Stine (01:09):
Well, occupational heat stress has been around since citations in three. The problem or the issue of its five a one, but the heat stresses can be extremely serious problem. And we have handled over the years, probably 10 fatality cases related to heat stress. The problem that obviously occurs here, occupational health comes from just honestly being so hot that the body just can't handle the heat. Typically, employees can take care of it, but there's a number of things related. Typically the way they'll determine whether it heat is temperature and they'll take the temperature. And when it gets to degrees fahrenheit dead. And so there's a lot of factors that go into it, but fundamentally, it just gets too hot. The employee or the worker or the person doesn't hydrate, doesn't get acclimated. Doesn't take sufficient risk. One of my cases, and sometimes it's because the acclimation very, I had a case in, was a college student working in Tampa on his very first day of working the railroad yard and decided he was gonna show everybody what a good worker he was. And they had him working on tankers tar in the summer in June. And they eventually found him on was, and he had been ACC to it and had the water, had the rest. And nobody was there beside himself there. Nobody there symptoms. He didn't know enough. It wasn't right. So those things we look at.

Sheri Oluyemi (03:00):
Okay. So you dipped into it a little bit, talking about some of the symptoms and the illnesses. Can you give us a list of what employers can for in terms of symptoms so that they can get to their workers before it become critical?

Larry Stine (03:13):
Certainly what begins to happen is confused. Huge. Get wobbly. I that's nice medical term guys. Wobbly. Wobbly. But it's a good term for your supervisors. They begin to kinda sway out and moves. That's good. You coming out, obviously stop it before it gets to a fatality, but Right. You know, so that's the symptoms you need to train your supervisor, watch out. Frankly, you need to train the employee what's going on. That dizziness, the, you know, they lose consciousness be really

Sheri Oluyemi (03:58):
Bad. Right. Others are of course exhaustion, excessive thirst. And these can develop into illnesses such as kidney injuries and of course heart attacks if it gets to that point. So let's talk about the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. How have they traditionally enforced or any employer responsibilities about heat stress?

Larry Stine (04:20):
Well, up until recently they've done it. The there's a for to temperature symptoms. And the problem is OSHA's lost almost every one of them. The reason they've lost almost every one of them is there's a provision in the nine table that after it gets to a certain point, it's about 88 degrees. You have to start giving them 45 minute break every hour. Well, the problem is in the southern United States, the southwestern United States and the South United States, that pretty much eliminates farming, construction, landscaping, nurseries, kids at six flags. The water works. You just can't do it. Yeah. And, and remember they're doing it on the general duty department, which requires it to be a recognized hazard in the industry. The problem is the II standard has never been except by anybody. Cause it is so unrealistic. What I suspect happens is what happens a lot of times is you get a bunch of experts that aren't really working in the real world.

Larry Stine (05:44):
Academics and government people saying, what can we do to prevent this? Well give five minutes for 15 every hour it won't happen. And I agree, right? If I get five minute break, they free hour. Nobody will ever have street beach in Southeast or Southwest. But, but nothing will ever get done. And it's not recognized. That's the reason they've lost all the cases and they haven't picked good ones. The last one they lost, they picked a out Ohio in May was 88. Yeah. And the guy who died was on his first day. He was five years old and had heart trouble.

Sheri Oluyemi (06:24):
Not a good test case. No,

Larry Stine (06:26):
It was a terrible test case. I still haven't figured out what OSHA was doing when they, that particular test.

Sheri Oluyemi (06:34):
So other ways OSHA has traditionally enforced a tress well enforced responsibilities with regards to tress has been through ppe. Right. They have also have of course, the record keeping regulations that you're all well aware of. And also general ones like first aid, you have to have someone onsite adminis their first aid. Right. And of course, safety and training,

Larry Stine (06:59):
Right?

Sheri Oluyemi (07:00):
Like Larry had said, you need to train your managers to recognize some of the early systems of heat stressed before it becomes critical. So more recently OSHA had decided to do a little bit more. Right. They issued a advanced notice of proposed rulemaking in October of 2021. Could you tell everyone a little bit about the proposed rule?

Larry Stine (07:20):
Sure. and by the way, I didn't write the response share response on the, we wrote a response to the advance proposal rule making. Its proposed rule making is just, Hey, should we issue a proposed rule? Right? Under stress? The problem with heat stress is it comes in so many places that's extremely difficult. One of the things, you know, they were kinda vague as what they wanted a series questions that we, but one of things that comments about the <inaudible> standard being totally unworkable, who did there are some state standards. California has one. And oddly enough, it seems to be a performance based standard that is the employers. Some flexibility is how they handle it in the environment they're in. Because it depends, I mean, you know, if you're in a glass factory, for example, it's extraordinarily hot mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but you're in a set setting and you can do things where you're having a heat problem every day. Industrial setting, same thing for Right. But when you're in a construction site or on farm or you got some job that you have to perform outside, it's a lot harder to adjust to it Right. And handle it. And you've gotta take care of those issues. What else did we on that advance?

Sheri Oluyemi (09:00):
Well, OSHA had asked employers what they do currently. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that works. So our thinking was perhaps if we tell OSHA what our clients are already doing, that's effective. If OSHA goes create a standard, perhaps it'll stick to those things that work. Which is a great segue into talking about what has worked for employers to minimize these stress. And that's what we told OSHA about. We, we got the same responses from most facilities talking about traumatization hydration breaks in cooler areas that sort of thing. Let's see, what else did OSHA ask about? We also wanted to know whether we had any thoughts about global warming or any thoughts about whether employers should be providing wearable devices to keep track of employee temperatures. What do you think about those options?

Larry Stine (09:55):
You know, not everybody can afford a smart watch. Basically not. It's either smart watch or something along those lines to, to regulate it. And there's too many that they get damaged. I mean, I just can't wait to see somebody that's you knowing bricks wearing those watches and see what happens to them within a few, few minutes, days, right? Yeah. The, the, the wearable devices is one of those ideas shared that they sit around the table in DC mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and they chit this is really good. Only problem is nobody at the table's never really worked the, in their life, no sense. But they, they're, you know, lawyers. So, you know, they're not working longer. It's easy to work air irrigation space. Right. Academics, they're not the one suing the, you know, hanging handl the work or,

Sheri Oluyemi (10:57):
So that's the update on the <inaudible> rulemaking that came out late last year. There has been no update. The comments period ended earlier this year. So OSHA is considering those comments, right. And determining what next steps they're going to make. But there've been no further updates except of course for the National Emphasis Program. Right? So in April, April 8th of this year, OSHA announced that it'll have a national emphasis program on heat stress. And a lot of our clients are concerned, well what does that mean? How's is that going to impact us? So could you tell us a little bit about this nep? What can we expect?

Larry Stine (11:35):
Right. Well, what's gonna happen is OSHA has decided that they're gonna put emphasis on each trustee. So basically as of now, the way OSHA works in the selection and it's changed it for decades, they did selection of establishments, the random selections. But when they changed regulations on reporting to report a hospitalization or a partial amputation didn't include bone laws all of a sudden. And so the whole way of enforcing has really changed over the years from establishments to responding to the report. Cause they're getting so many reports, right? So one of the things that they're looking for in their reports is opportunities at each. So if you're you, you're probably not gonna get to show place

Sheri Oluyemi (12:34):
Just for each,

Larry Stine (12:34):
Just for heat stress if you got scheduled on it. With one exception. And I'll talk about that exception. And the second is that when you make a report goes of partial hospitalization or death, which they always do, that's not changed. They do all of, they're gonna be looking at those and prioritizing anyone where they see the tress issues. And they're gonna come out and they're gonna wanna see what are you doing to take care the tress. And you, they're not doing anything. And you're in an environment which is working outside in the Southern United States in the summertime, they're gonna go after you with a five one.

Sheri Oluyemi (13:26):
So we liken it to the Covid situation. OSHA comes on the site, they're there for another reason. They're according to a separate complaint. But they may ask about your COVID policy. They may wanna see your covid book. We read this, this NEP as being similar. They're on site for other reasons. But if there's a potential for heat stress, then they may want to do more to ask about your heat stress program. They're probably going to use that to try to expand the investigation. Don't

Larry Stine (13:54):
You think They they are on tribe and use it to expand the investigation. And I have some constitutional issues with that. If you made a report of somebody having a partial amputation, the piece of equipment and they come out, our point of view is they have to limit their inspection to that accident. They're trying to take in expanding beyond and using basically a program. The problem is that a couple of quarter of appeals have said you can't mix the two. You're either coming out on a program and you're selected according to the terms of the program. Are you coming out on an unprogrammed type A complaint? An adaptation, A hospitalization. Fatality. Mm-Hmm. And what they tried, they tried to do is take those unprogram and as a and the 11th circuit, we took a case called MAR all the way to the 11th circuit.

Larry Stine (15:04):
Cause they came in on and wanted to trigger a wall wall and we sorted them out. They weren't happy with me, but that's okay. My job not to make them happy. Right. and what the 11th circuit says is, no, you can't do that. You're either coming in with a program with a random selected or they come in a complaint. The problem being is, is it allows, if they don't do that, it allows some disgruntled employee and calling in, making a, a fake issue that BO you can't do it. And they come out and they do a wall to wall or do a heat on you based upon some of the fact. Now if you get a complain and it says, Hey, I'm not handling heat. Well all bets are off. Right. But when they come in and you're having something unrelated to Hre and they want to expand it personally I'd push back. Right. I would not let them do it. Let

Sheri Oluyemi (16:04):
Them

Larry Stine (16:05):
Do that. By the time they got finally fighting with me, someone would be over. I'd fall. Cool. Come

Sheri Oluyemi (16:12):
That after that because the national program specifically states, and I'm gonna quote it cause I found it really interesting. It says that coaches who are investigating for other purposes shall open or refer a heat related inspection if there are any conditions recorded in the OSHA 300 log or any 3 0 1 incident reports where the employee brings a heat related hazard to the attention. So this is specifically stating in the national access program that they are going to try to do that when they come on site. And as customarily do they ask to see your 300 for the last six months or so?

Larry Stine (16:50):
Well, 300 for four years.

Sheri Oluyemi (16:53):
For four years. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they'll look through those and see whether there've been any incidents that could have been caused by heat. And that'll sort of invite them to look further, which as Larry just told you, you should push back.

Larry Stine (17:06):
And that what they're trying to do is the OSHA 300 issue also raise and the is that OSHA wants to have her cake and needed to because what happens in the start of the regulations for the record keeping cause CFR four, we, we number zero. It basically says this is not recording things that's at fault or a violation. It just means the record keeping. So in other words, you could have some employee who had put, put a binge on and got alcohol out to Yasu, goes out and has problems with heat in the morning because the alcohol bringing a lot of alcohol really dehydrates you badly. And you get out and you had a, the night before, you may start suffering symptoms right away, but it's not gonna be cause the company did. You had an night dehydrated,

Larry Stine (18:08):
Severely dehydrated. That's what the alcohol does and you have to record it cause it's a no fault type system. But OSHAs kinda schizophrenic about how they wanna handle the OSHA one hand. They violations system that they don't, they very issue came up in March that case. And the court made the distinction saying that's the way for courted doesn't prove there's a violation. And you have to have at least reasonable cause that there's a violation. Not that there's reasonable cause of hazard because a hazard, that's the reasonable cause every construction site, every farm, every landscaper has the hazard of heat stress in the summer and south. Right. But that's not a probable cause cause that's just work conditions for doing it. Violation comes anything it about it.

Sheri Oluyemi (19:08):
Right. Well the P'S gonna be with us for quite a while. It's expires in three years. Unless it is canceled or extended or unless OSHA comes up with a specific tress standard within that time period.

Larry Stine (19:22):
I've never seen cancel before. They're out whatever life they say they have. This is three years. It

Sheri Oluyemi (19:30):
Three years. Okay. Thank you Larry. Thankfully, perhaps it doesn't apply to every industry. So there is a lengthy list of the industries to which the National Emphasis Program does apply to. Some of our, our clients and our guests on the call today might be interested to know. Construction is specifically listed. Fruit and tree nut farming is specifically listed. Vegetable farming is specifically listed manufacturing is is listed. House goods and repair and maintenance. There's a complete list. You can always reach out to us and, and I'm happy to share it with you. But not every industry is impacted. That's true.

Larry Stine (20:11):
We're course we don't work out. Basically when you look at that list, by the way, they've pretty much went down the list and found everybody that's working outdoors. Outdoors or if they're industrial environment where they handle So you won't refrigerator.

Sheri Oluyemi (20:30):
No. So, so we wanna spend this next segment talking about specific things that employers can do just to manage a stress. And we've mentioned some that came up during our response to the advanced noticeable rule making which is acclimatization, that was number one. Hydration of, of course was number two. One that came up a few times was the buddy system. Right. Could you tell our guests about

Larry Stine (20:56):
That? Sure. Some of the, particularly some of the farmers in such, we've gone to the buddy system. I'll give you an example of why we've done that. In, in the case we had, we were dealing with a heap express case for our farm in South Georgia. When, I mean South Georgia, it was like a mile from far. Okay. So it was really South Georgia and it was hot. They had an employee we found out, got the report, had heart problem. And so he went off by himself. And what we suspected is he fainted a lost consciousness and laid in his sun on a hot south shore today for about 15 minutes. It wasn't found for 15 minutes. And when they found he been sitting in the sun with no break, no hydration and passed away from the heat. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So one of the things that we're doing in these environments, and remember I said the same thing about the kid on the top of the tar is have a buddy with him because part of the symptoms, the heat sometimes is you get confused.

Larry Stine (22:04):
Right. And so you don't recognize once you become confused that you're having problems with he, but it's not a hard thing for your buddy to recognize. To recognize. And it's a helpful thing to do. Now you can't always do that. I mean they're, there're jobs in which we're seeing people out and they're by themselves and like think of some guy that's going around reading meetings, everybody's house. He's by himself and he's outside all way long. He's not gonna have a budget. But you can do some things by having him check in every hour of our phone or something along those lines. Something that you have a checking system to have that expert thing. It's so it is not required by California standards. Right. But it's something people want to consider in the situation.

Sheri Oluyemi (22:54):
Okay. Another administrative control that we, we have seen quite a bit are course rest periods. So not quite 15 minutes for every 45 minutes work, but rest periods for the day that the employee can take as they feel the need to do. So of course monitoring the wgt, which is the wet bulb, globe temperature.

Larry Stine (23:15):
That's right.

Sheri Oluyemi (23:17):
Ocean has focused a lot on the heat index, but we've also heard a lot about the W G T. What's the difference?

Larry Stine (23:24):
The wet bulb, <laugh>,

Sheri Oluyemi (23:27):
Wet bulb, globe

Larry Stine (23:28):
Temperature, both temperature. Is it something similar to it? It does take into context heat and humidity. Okay. And so it's a way of measuring that's what they, a way of measuring both heat and moisture. The reasons obvious. Although with mper it is and the higher it's how harder it's to sweat off the heat. Got it. So the is, its easier for your body to sweat and generate the heat vegetable point in which it can be. Like I told somebody one day I was playing golf in desert California. It was 14 degrees, no humidity. The hum temp was 14 degrees. Yes. Yeah. It's still hot. Still very hot. But you don't sweat cause it just, you actually sweat. You don't see it on you because it instantly evaporate as soon as you do. So that's, that's the difference. It's a system by which you can imagine anything human temperas to a temperature and you want be monitoring this temperature.

Larry Stine (24:36):
Cause there's a point in which you need to start making adjustments. And a lot of times the industries have done that. Right. Just because of practical experience like we noticed in the summertime on construction sites mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, almost everybody in construction site is sitting at the construction site waiting for dawn, not sunrise. As soon as it gets late enough work in the morning work reason they're doing is they as many hours as they before they're the real holiday the day, which is the late afternoon comes in. So you'll see construction sites in the summer and a lot of ordinances let you start before a certain time. But in summertime they allow much start that very, one of the things you administrative straight up point of view of helping the lead start. Now not all operations can do that, but typically you'll see it on farms, construction sites, landscaping start at a very,

Sheri Oluyemi (25:41):
Okay, that's very helpful. Let's move on to talk about P P e. What protective equipment, what protective personal equipment can be used to mitigate stress? Are there any

Larry Stine (25:53):
Available? Well, yes. There are some PPEs available. There are cooling collars, cooling this there a scar you can and they do cool out. I've actually bought one of the best before you put water in. Put water in it and it keeps the core temperatures cool. Now the problem is for a few hours you gotta to go it refill the cool. And it still only works for a certain level from a P P E. The interesting thing I think about it is the air, the sand,

Sheri Oluyemi (26:31):
What do they

Larry Stine (26:32):
Do? If you look at the red ones and all those, what do they do? They wear clothes and covers all their skin. They wear a head covering, but it's very light breathable, breathable fabrics. So head covering, keep the sun off your head. Some light long sleeved shirts. So very lightweight cotton right light slacks is actually better than bareheaded short sleeves and shorts. That does sound a little odd,

Sheri Oluyemi (27:08):
But,

Larry Stine (27:08):
But there's a reason why the beds wore those outfits in the blazing hot desert because it's actually much more effective issue to wear the lightweight covering clothing.

Sheri Oluyemi (27:23):
Okay. Okay. So that's good. We have a bit of a list there. We have cooling vests, we have breathable clothing. We have of course hats wet face towels. These are various PPEs that employers can use to keep their workers cool out there. Right. There are also engineering controls. This is something we asked the lumber manufacturers and we've got a few good responses we'll share with you. Of course, air conditioning, ventilation, cooling fans. Can you think of any other engineering controls that employers can implement?

Larry Stine (27:59):
And you can little, you know, if out on farm or someplace, once you have all these fills and the trees are a long way away, you can the shade, not the 10 cause it cuts down the ventilation, but you can put up the shade structure, which basically open along sides overhead, keeps the sun off of you. Oftentimes you are having a water station, you put your water station underneath the shades so they could come and spend a few minutes. Now more often breaks are required, just not minute. But typically having a short break every hour properly hydrate, sit in the shade for a few minutes of that working the sun. It's a very hopeful tool to keep them doing. I mean, fundamentally to me the most critical things on the beach business, first they have to be acc mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So when you're bring in, it's something that you had to be cognizant of, bring a new employee in and they're coming in the hot seasons, they haven't had the opportunity to acclimate them.

Larry Stine (29:08):
Typically, when you think about it, if I've got somebody working for me since March or February and they've been working and tempera getting warmer and gradually acc their bodies used to acct the, the same problem. But if I take another kid or another employee and put in, in June, I put it in the same environment that I've had to other employees, they're gonna react much worse. So you've got to pay attention to those first couple weeks. And you've got to plan it. Cause they just might not be able to handle, you've gotta keep a much closer eye on your new employees and particularly if they start in a hot season.

Sheri Oluyemi (29:53):
Got it. Got it. So if you're keeping track these administrative controls, these engineering controls and ppe, if these are things that are practical for your workplace, things that you can implement and of course show to OSHA when they come by on that np for tress. So one of the issues we saw a lot of our clients talk about was the fact that they can't control their own employees. Like we talked about the individual who went on a binge Yep. And then came to work dehydrated. So that brings us to training. What can employers train their employees on that might reduce the incidence of stress, illness and

Larry Stine (30:31):
Injuries? They really, I don't think it's terrible, difficult thing do thing to do. So you need to sit down to them how he impacts them. Okay. What are the symptoms that he stress so they can observe it of the need for hydration? The need to take breaks when they need to take breaks. And that's more difficult in the plan. When I'm in an operation shift and field construction disappear. Not lot of times it's easier for them to take short break like get a row in agriculture, you can take a break, you're building something, you just completed something, you can take the break. So you can plan those sorts of things based upon the structure. But how many those, most of the breaks, the shorter breaks mm-hmm. <Affirmative> three, four or five minutes go down. Course hydration, I mean it after acclimation. Hydration is next, hydration's next. And you have to train pool on the accm and you need to the guys, you know, Monday through Friday we're working. If you wanna go on a payday heyday, go on payday and sober and out.

Larry Stine (31:58):
It surprises me sometimes in these cases, ignorant voice and be, or some of those things that I think are common sense. Right. Sometimes the ignorance is in cases resulted in their death which is which a shame. So you can train them on those issues also with clothing. Right. Because a lot of employees really think that you are outta your ever loving mind to make them wear long, long pants and long sleeves. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and the heat, they think you're crazy when in reality it makes more sense if you start thinking it through because you don't suning down on your legs, your, your arms and motion. Surely

Sheri Oluyemi (32:42):
Not your

Larry Stine (32:43):
Head, not my head. My head would never survive. No, no. We would never survive.

Sheri Oluyemi (32:47):
Not by Larry. You might need to keep a hat

Larry Stine (32:49):
On permanent

Sheri Oluyemi (32:51):
Or cool rag or something. So yes. Just to recap the, that we should provide, what are the hazards of the, how to avoid those illnesses. How to recognize the symptoms, the signs and of course first aid procedures. That's something else. The advanced notice of proposed rulemaking talked about. What type of first aid can you provide to someone who appears to have some heat related stress?

Larry Stine (33:16):
Yeah. Interestingly osha certain safety projects, it's called Susan Haywood grant. Ok. And they have financed in the past the HEAT program and it's contained on the webpage under the, it's hard to find, it's Susan Haywood grants, but they have a wonderful little Spanish comic book that you can, it's designed for people who are like farm workers or landscapers. But it's actually a very good, this is sounding weird guys, but a common, but it actually is a very effective communication tool for people who have limited reading skills. You like a third grade or so. This actually does an effective job of, of putting the training and you can take that and adopt it to other environments if you can't find it on the 

Sheri Oluyemi (34:11):
Page.

Larry Stine (34:12):
Yeah. And feel, feel free to call us, email us and we will send you the comic book. Know this is not an, so we don't take any money off of singing. The comic book does. It's just there and I know where it and I have it, so if you want it let us know. We'll send you. But, but some, the other thing has

Sheri Oluyemi (34:40):
Oh yes.

Larry Stine (34:40):
And they have a hot on heat and it's, it, one of my farmers used that for their training. Matter of fact the case in which we had, they were actually training their employees and using the OS on heat. Matter of fact they went so as they blew it up and made it a big board and posted it on every bus. Oh,

Sheri Oluyemi (35:07):
That's a great idea.

Larry Stine (35:08):
That's one reason when osha, I finally got in OSHA 5 81. Okay. Cause they really couldn't tell us what else we had do. But it's a good way of doing it. Nothing else. Outtakes on destress and use that as your training device. Right. Does have a very hard time disputing your training

Sheri Oluyemi (35:34):
If you use their materials.

Larry Stine (35:35):
If you use their materials. Right. Although they tried to do it with the farmer, but eventually they had <laugh> had to let go. They had to let go. It's like we used what you said, but more you want us to do. Right. Always, always. The trainee is, is it's a very important thing. And the last thing is you gotta train your supervisors.

Sheri Oluyemi (36:00):
Right.

Larry Stine (36:01):
Your supervisors really have to know what's going on about and keep an eye while they're watching their workers, the symptoms of, and they need to be cognizant of what's the well temperature for sure. But fundamentally one or the other. How is, and it gets to be a point where, you know, it get to be hundred degrees. You might wanna think about like I said, really starting early earlier days. You can, or if you need to wait the evening if possible. Right. Some operations it's not.

Sheri Oluyemi (36:38):
And some of the respondents to our survey that we sent out to respond to the advance notice of those rule making, basically the exact same thing. But sometimes they'll stagger their work so they start where the temperature is a little bit better or they'll stagger the projects. If there's a project they can do indoors while it's too hot outside, then that around. So some flexibility with that scheduling is a good idea. I would also think that you need to think about the scheduling of your training. Perhaps don't train the winter with, this is not gonna be top of mind. Right. Wait to do the heat stretch topics on maybe start in May or start in June. What's gonna, temperature gets really high based on where you live or where you work. South

Larry Stine (37:17):
Training

Sheri Oluyemi (37:18):
April <laugh>, April and South Georgia to start early. Yeah. and then you can do a refresher on certain days where the heat index is very high reef refresher during your daily huddle so that employees can keep it top of mind. I would imagine that it's difficult to forget that you're working in a hot environment but maybe you don't remember to take care of yourself. Get that hydration. Didn't that break? Yeah.

Larry Stine (37:41):
Remember part of it is the acclimation. So I'm beginning to work and it's hot, but I've been working in hot weather. I mean lot of, I meantime tell you that, that big between three of us. Ok. We drink the five gallon, it was a five gallon cooler. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, the three of us drink five gallons of water every day. Cause take a quick break, quick hydration. The hydration is good, but supervisors have to be, and when they see it, they need to take appropriate action, pull the guy out and roll him into some cooler area. Get him, sit him down, let cool off and get him high. Now there's a dispute between whether shades better or air condition better. I'm gonna leave that to the guys who want dispute. The problem with putting in ac going back out is the, the change is so dramatic. Right. A lot of times I think lot of people it's cooler area than circulation shade

Sheri Oluyemi (38:54):
Opposed to air

Larry Stine (38:54):
Conditioning. Yeah. I, I mean I can tell you I worked hanging shade once I, I a college, they gave me all the, so when the day was like seven, I still remember this vividly. I came out after probably temperature degrees, walked out degrees,

Sheri Oluyemi (39:13):
Cooler.

Larry Stine (39:14):
It feels cooler. And if I'd gone into an air conditioning it would've been a little harsh. So you need to think of those things. And I think most people, but not all suggest a cooler room. Not agi, what it's, it's hard to manage that particular issue.

Sheri Oluyemi (39:35):
So just a reminder, you can put your questions into the chat or into the q and a. We'll take those in just a second. My last question here, just ask generally, what can employers do to prepare for OSHA's program? And we've covered some of this already. So we've talked about using OSHA's OSHA's tools that are already available. They have the hot takes that you mentioned, right? They also have an app which tells you about heat index for the day. Right. Gives you some tips. You can download that app for free on OSHA's website and that's a tool that you show to the compliance officer if they come through. Of course we talked about training just now to recognize issues with heat stress. What about encouraging employees to report how they're feeling, how they see their coworkers feeling? I feel as though that's something that needs to be talked about

Larry Stine (40:26):
A little bit more. Sure. You, you need them. Remember we talked about system. Yes. And having supervised it is kind my brother's keepers philosophy of your, everybody's responsible for everybody else. And so if they see something reported, right? It's kinda a program one. The other thing that you, I know she shows up the number one thing is they love paper. They paper guys. It's just, it's not on paper it. So I would strongly recommend that you have a written program on what you're doing, how you're doing it and document your training. You not required a law to do it, but you be able to. It you gotta be of paper to do it. So have program then the thoughtful one will make them acknowledge that you're doing it. Have the the available have the training program available. Have the training roster available. Be able to show them where your hydration stands are.

Larry Stine (41:37):
You've got the water, the cool water, cool water. You know, one, one trip is when I was fill, freeze it, freeze it over nice to about that big, it doesn't melt as fast and get the water all cool and a five gallon. Cool. That's how we kept it. Cool. Some of those days it was 97, 98 in those houses hot. Very often. And but if you've got your employees acclimated, hydrated, taking the rest, most everybody can handle. We're pretty, human beings are pretty remarkable features. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> we can handle and keep most of the time. But you should probably not all the same. So if you got somebody with a hard problem, they may, you may not know it. Matter of fact it's probably illegal to find out about it on the right. But you need to watch out for symptoms. That's the reason you're looking for these symptoms. And also, like I said, you might not have ACC or may have been AER the night before and the guy who has problem with all sudden problems.

Sheri Oluyemi (42:53):
Okay. And for anyone out there who wants a very detailed checklist, the N E P actually includes a checklist that is intended for the compliance officer. So it asks the compliance officer when you're on site, look for these specific things. And some of that is ppe, which we've talked about. Availability of pool water and heat stress plan. So these are things that once officers are being instructed to ask employers on site. One last thing we'll talk about, which is on that checklist is the job hazard assessment. So JH

Larry Stine (43:28):
Jhs, right? J H js,

Sheri Oluyemi (43:31):
Jsas, whatever you call them. Yeah.

Larry Stine (43:33):
You see the most frequently in construction, matter of fact in construction industry is most everybody that I know is gone to having a daily JS a, which basically is a short time to this together with the supervisor and says what are, what, what are the hazards for the day typically in a construction site. Now little talking about fall hazard, trip hazard, electrical hazards. But then when it get be warm, the thing you need to add eight guys, it's gonna be 98 degrees today is gonna be hot. We need to be careful about heat stress, watch out for each other. Hydrate. Right. So that you can put it on your JSA or JHA or whatever else you guys wanna call your daily list. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But it's instructions come, haven't done it, but I would strongly recommend it at least on days in which you're working outside in the eating that is getting weight up there. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> is that you make certain, you just have a short little session saying guys, right. Certain your taking got the water over here. Right. You know, we're, we're, we're cleaning out the water all along. And check those factors and hotel from each other.

Sheri Oluyemi (44:59):
Something else we noticed from the response to our survey was a lot of employers sent definitely no energy drinks. You could have electrolytes that are added to the water, but I think there was a sounding consensus that energy drinks are not helpful to avoid the stress.

Larry Stine (45:16):
Lot of have caffeine. Sure.

Sheri Oluyemi (45:19):
That dehydrates

Larry Stine (45:20):
Actually dehydrates actually what you're looking for is things I don't Right dehydrate it's still nothing better than

Sheri Oluyemi (45:28):
The simplest thing is usually the best. So the floor is open now for questions. You can either type them in q and a, put them in the comments or you can, I believe you can raise your hand as well and we can give the floor to ask your question.

Larry Stine (45:48):
Just while y'all are thinking you have question Supreme Court decisions that came out. This was not what talking about last week at all. Right. But there was an important decision by the Supreme Court's called major question the epa. And that's an issue we were briefing when we were challenging the OSHA ETS for the covid is that same issue came up. What you're seeing now from the Supreme Court is a restriction on the administrative state and the regulations. Fundamentally what they're saying is that gets the Supreme Court saying basically it gets to be a point that this has such a major impact upon the country. That this is something that the administrative state can't do. Right. It has to be done by Congress. Right. And it is a a on the administrative state grow and, but it's, and that's true by the way Republican or a Democrat in there. Cause they tend to use the administrative states in different ways. Right. But they both do it and the Supreme Court says basically you're serving Congress vote and they can't do it. It's fascinating case. 

Sheri Oluyemi (47:08):
And you can expect OSHA to use this as a president or to use this in any argument that talk about the major question. This is gonna be a case that's now governing.

Larry Stine (47:17):
Oh yeah. This will be the leading case under a major question along with the case that they rendered for the oceans. Right. They also a particular issue. Anybody that doesn't look like anybody's got any questions, I guess we were totally thorough, answered every question you could possibly have. It's not true guys. I know it's not.

Sheri Oluyemi (47:41):
Well they also know they can reach out to us. Our contact information is on the website. If you have any specific questions please email us directly. We'd be happy to help. Especially with regards to the nep, it took it back in April. So now the months are really hot. We'll be expecting be out and about a lot more often.

Larry Stine (48:02):
And my email is jls com. Question, do you want the comic books sent to you? You want us to send you a sample? Each for program? We have one of those. We had to on that case with the to You'll have to adjust. We'll be glad to for that. Agreed. Agreed to. One of the things that we agreed to was to share that program whoever wanted it. And we've done that in Accord, made with with osha. So at least it's something that one OSHA office agreed to acceptable program. Well guys, appreciate you being here for lunch. I know we got a few minutes, but I don't see any questions. Thank you for your time. I hope this was helpful. And thanks so much and.